EuroPA

Michael Salmony 0:12

Hello, my name is Michael Salmony and I'd like to welcome you to another episode of the Trilogue or what is increasingly becoming a Quadrilogue as we always have guests. And indeed today we have Teresa who's always very interesting on payments and she's on the board of SIBS.

and ⁓ also involved in EuroPA and EMPSA and all these exciting things. So maybe, Teresa, you can tell us a little bit about yourself, your company, and especially how EuroPA and EMPSA interrelate, because some people think it's the same, but it isn't. So maybe you can help educate us there.

Teresa Mesquita 0:50

Okay, great. Well, thank you, Michael and all for the opportunity also to be here. And I think it's great because we get these questions a lot. So it's a good opportunity to also explore them. So as you said, I'm from SIBS. SIBS is one of the participants in the EuroPA and also we've been a member of EMPSA since the foundation of EMPSA. And SIBS, have the...

payment solution that is MB WAY and that's ⁓ the solution that is represented both in EMPSA but also most and also most meaningfully in EuroPA. So MB WAY for who does not know it is the Portuguese payment wallet. ⁓ is currently it is used by more than 90 % of the bank population in Portugal so it's more than

6.5 million users and it's really a trusted brand and a solution. We're celebrating 10 years this year, so we're very proud. And it's an example of one of the solutions that we have across Europe that have been winning the hearts of consumers in the moment that they pay. so it's... ⁓

the way that many of the Portuguese prefer to pay both in-store and online, so in e-commerce, but also sending money to friends. So ⁓ it really covers all the most frequent ⁓ use cases, but including some other use cases like public transportation, like subscriptions, tax payments, etc. So it's very meaningful for the Portuguese consumer.

And this is an example really of what these kinds of solutions are also in other markets across Europe that have been developing these options for the users. EuroPA really came together less than a year ago, I'd say, and we are connecting MB WAY with Bancomat in Italy and Bizum in Spain. So they're all trusted brands in their respective markets with large user bases.

And in the meantime, what we have achieved is we have piloted the solution in November and we have gone live in March. And currently we're rolling out to all the banks in the three markets. But also very importantly, we also have already the interest of four other solutions, there are EMPSA members also, that they want to join this initiative. The initiative for now is focused on P2P.

but it does have a roadmap of going to also P2M use or merchant payments use cases. So we have solutions that are present in eight EuroPA markets. So it's Blik that is present in Poland and Slovakia. You have DIAS that is present in Greece, Borica in Bulgaria, and Vipps Mobile Pay that's present in the Nordics, Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden.

So it's all about having the preferred solution that users already have in their local market and being able to use it also cross border. ⁓ So from the beginning, EuroPA has been open to new solutions also joining. ⁓ And three weeks ago, actually, we had an announcement, a very meaningful announcement also that

⁓ We are in cooperation today with EPI also, ⁓ exploring solutions to address ⁓ European sovereignty in payments, with a focus of course on the cross-border component of the payments. So there's an interest in jointly exploring P2P use cases, but most importantly in-store and e-commerce use cases.

And we expect to have conclusions of this ⁓ study that we're doing together in the coming weeks. So together with EPI, ⁓ we have 15 countries with a population of 382 million. That's more than 85 % of the European Union plus Norway population. So that's already very meaningful. So our perspective here is that there is a sense of urgency and that the

time horizon is actually shrinking and interoperability for us is really the way forward to be able to actually have truly pan-European payments. So that's what EuroPA is all about.

Michael Salmony 5:35

But this is a bit of

a... That's very impressive. isn't it a bit of a sort of Volta Fasce of EPI? They used to say interoperability is that's no good. And now suddenly they are interoperating with you. Can you help me understand that?

Teresa Mesquita 5:51

At this moment, think we are cooperating to understand what's the best way forward and how we can leverage the investments that everyone is doing. I think I get the argument of that interoperability is hard, that interoperability is difficult. Everybody knows it. Our business is actually our...

All our use cases are actually built on interoperability, interoperability between banks. payments is a check and an eight problem and it's a very hard to solve problem, we all know that. But that's how all these local solutions that exist today and EPI including have come together really, it's through interoperability between their member banks.

And so that's how we have been driving payments across Europe. Ever since we have been moving users from cash to cards, and now we're moving from cards to mobile and digital payments, we're doing it based on interoperability, be it at ⁓ bank level or at another level. So here I think that the key factor is really the urgency and the acknowledgement that

⁓ reaching penetration of a new payment method will take some five, eight years. Full adoption, maybe closer to 10 years. So really, it's the sense of urgency, I think, is leading everybody to acknowledge that, maybe we should look at how we could cooperate. And ⁓ I guess...

Everybody says that, you know, interoperability is too hard and I'll give the arguments that maybe you're thinking of, like it's you're replicating investments in several markets, you have, it's very difficult to reach those technical connections and you have over costs, but actually you're leveraging the costs and the investments that have already been done. And we do have ⁓ different... ⁓

a different context today than we had for some years in the back, in other times, where these interoperability was also a solution that was explored.

Ralf Ohlhausen 8:12

Good.

Could I ask you a follow up question? are going a bit deeper into the interoperability question. So I understand that all of this has come out of EMPSA and the association and bringing together all those national mobile payment solutions. And there is also the intention to have like a hub and spoke model. But is that what you're doing today with Bancomat and Bizum? Or is it based on actually bilateral?

connections. So each one with each one on a technical side, and maybe also on a commercial side, because I guess commercials are also one of the big challenges with different pricing models in different markets.

Teresa Mesquita 9:08

Yeah, you're right. So and that maybe leads us a little bit to EMPSA and what EMPSA has been doing. So EMPSA ⁓ is an association. It's bringing together the mobile payment solutions in 11 different 11 different solutions today. And what we have been doing is really looking into how we can cooperate both on a technical, commercial and legal perspective and how that can be achieved. We have also been

building technical APIs, for instance, and that is actually what has enabled EuroPA to connect. Those APIs today are implemented in a bilateral way. They are designed in such a way that they can also be in a hub approach, for example. And what we're looking at is really how going forward into in-store use cases,

⁓ what will be the best model going forward. So I think that's something that is not closed at the moment, but that's what we are focusing on at the moment.

Ralf Ohlhausen 10:03

Yeah, because.

Yeah, because you mentioned already, so at the moment, EuroPA is doing person to person, be P2P, right? But the intention is to come to merchant payments now. And I guess that is where the commercials then become relevant, because of P2P, guess they are not so much.

Teresa Mesquita 10:15

Exactly.

Exactly. So in P2M, you already have some frameworks, which I guess in many cases are already aligned. And these frameworks somehow are already tested also in the market because one of the challenges is if you are using instant payments for instance for the settlement.

How do you build a commercial model on top of instant payments? So I guess that's already something that is already being addressed. There's already experience in the market in doing that. ⁓ And the approach that we're having is that each solution keeps their way of doing things in their local markets. And we're solving for how to connect different markets. And that's relevant because in the end, no matter what happens, and even if you have one solution, for instance, you have one

card solution from the international card brands, for instance, but they have specific local ⁓ conditions, right? From a commercial perspective, you have local interchange fees, have local conditions for merchants for specific use cases in local markets. So you will always have to address that. And that's what we are doing is we are looking because there are different levels of fees.

in different markets and some different rules also. And so that is something that is cumbersome, that is a challenge, but you will have to address it no matter what. Because if you have, even if you have one solution and it is present in different markets and those markets have different levels of fees, you'll have to adapt to that because you can only compete in that specific market if you are competing in the same.

in the same way that the local market is competing. So I think there is some challenges, of course, and that's what we are looking into. ⁓ But there is also a strong motivation at the moment to do so. ⁓ And we are doing progress. So the aim here is to be able to align how technically and operationally we could work, but also commercially.

Javier 12:43

Teresa, you mentioned twice that you feel a sense of urgency, that the urgency is the matter. And my question is, where does this urgency stem from? Is it that you perceive there is a huge business opportunity you may miss? You feel that there are a lot of demonstrations by people in Europe requesting a pan-European solution? Is it a request coming from the authorities?

Or is it more the feeling of a threat coming from the digital euro? Or what else?

Teresa Mesquita 13:19

Well, I'd say all of the above.

Javier 13:22

My question,

what I want to arrive to is that we need to know where the problem comes from, then to check whose expectations we need to meet and then deliver and check if they are satisfied or not.

Teresa Mesquita 13:42

You are very right, Javier. So I think we can start maybe by the user. So the consumer is asking for it. So our MB WAY users are asking for it because they go to Spain, they go to France, they go to Italy, and they want to continue to use their preferred payment method there with the same simplicity that they do here. So that's the starting point. The users from a merchant side are also asking for it, of course, because

They also want alternatives and they want efficient alternatives. ⁓ these solutions, some based on instant payments, some based on cards, but our solutions are typically more efficient than the existing solutions or non-European solutions in the market. So that's ⁓ the real starting point is the users, it is something that we know they are demanding of us.

But that's really the starting point. Then of course, there's also the fact that today we are in a different position than we were some years ago when many other interoperability initiatives were attempted. And we do have interoperability already in Europe in the Eurozone and that's not our whole goal. Let's look at that.

⁓ In the Eurozone there is already instant payment that from a settlement perspective provides us a way of moving the money in the end because in the end that's what has to happen. We are still looking into the cross currency and that's something that we also believe that has to be addressed. ⁓ But instant payments... ⁓

in the eurozone is seamless. already have provided by the TIPS and SEPA the interoperable framework and ⁓ instant payments is now the scheme and the standards already today must also be implemented in other non-euro European markets which of course also gives you ⁓ an extra layer.

And then there's the technology today that is available is different, know, so we have regarding to vis-a-vis what was done in the past, more and more things are based on APIs, they're based on more cloud solutions. And that really is enabling us to do what we're doing in P2P and then leveraging for what we also want to do. And in the end, we have to see that ⁓

Europe and I think that we have, it's very important that we acknowledge that digital payments in Europe is a success case actually, right? So we are much more advanced than many other even advanced ⁓ economies ⁓ worldwide. And that is true on the adoption of digital payments, on adoption of digital wallets.

you have a very competitive and very diverse ⁓ ecosystem. We have been in the forefront of adoption of chip and PIN, contactless, account to account, mobile banking. And we are also a very efficient payment sector, a little bit driven by regulation also, but in the end, we are also a very efficient payment sector from the perspective of the merchant.

And then we are in the forefront, and I'm quite sure of that, of adopting instant payments ⁓ across the board for several use cases, not only for the home bankings and mobile bankings, but also in these solutions for other types of use cases. Of course, these successes are not the guarantee of the future successes. So we also have a lot of dependency on non-European technology standards. ⁓

the increase of threats like cyber threats, like fraud. And we have a very ⁓ high regulatory complexity that is fragmented and that is also a challenge. And because we're so efficient, it also lacks the funding, maybe the necessary funding for the investments and innovation that we need. So we have a good starting point to be able to achieve

a good competitive digital pan-European market, but we need to also address these concerns to be able to address to have also to continue to have future successes.

Michael Salmony 18:35

One argument,

Teresa, that you didn't mention in your list ⁓ in response to Javier's question was sovereignty. So can I try and sow a little bit of dissent between you and Javier because a lot of people are saying that sovereignty is a top topic. We need to become more independent of Mr. Trump. And ⁓ Javier, think, has some concerns whether the sovereignty argument is really valid. So maybe we can just dive a little bit into that.

Teresa Mesquita 19:05

Sure, so I think sovereignty is top of the agenda right now in Europe in many sectors and rightly so probably. So we have been looking and revising how we should address ⁓ some critical sectors in Europe, starting by defense of course, but and payments is really a very critical infrastructure. So, and we had a blackout here in Spain and Portugal.

just some weeks ago. So you really understand how payments is part of the critical infrastructure of any developed economy. And so ⁓ we also believe that the sovereignty and autonomy issue is really giving us the sense of urgency.

that maybe did not exist a year ago when we started the EuroPA project. And that's also one of the factors for sure that is bringing ⁓ this sense of urgency and bringing the discussions ⁓ with more speed together. So if we want to in a short timeframe be able to deliver that any European can be able to pay cross-border also using their preferred solution,

we really need to put our efforts and put our investments in it. And that's important because in the end, it's all a matter of investment. ⁓ when you are, so having this objective and having this sense of urgency also helps ⁓ to focus the investments on the ⁓ cross borders. So let's face it.

most use cases are local, right? So most payments that we do, 80 to 90, almost 100 % in some markets of the payments that you do are local use cases. You do those payments in your market. ⁓ And so that makes the investment in cross border. So when you're talking about interoperability, more challenging. And that's what this sense of urgency is supporting that we all have the

More investment is being put into that and that's just a fact of life that we're reaching this.

Ralf Ohlhausen 21:32

Could I dig a bit deeper

into that? Because you already mentioned earlier currency or cross currency. But if I'm not mistaken, so far, the involvement of say, Blik is just for the euro part. not for the non euro side, which is the bigger side of them. And you also mentioned, I think, Bulgaria and, and also the Nordics, most having their own different currencies. So I do have already

plans now on how to deal with a cross currency issue and getting that cross border thing going in Europe.

Teresa Mesquita 22:10

Yes, that's one of the topics that we are addressing in our discussions is really, for instance, Blik that you mentioned, yes, the priority will be Slovakia because it's euro, but we are also ⁓ looking into the cross-currency for Blik, so also to be able to connect with Poland. ⁓ And it is something that because of the Nordics, as you were saying,

In the study that we are doing, we are also addressing, it includes also the cross currency to be able to connect with the Nordics. So not only euro, but also cross currency payments. So the settlement layer there will have to be something that we will have to address also during those discussions.

Ralf Ohlhausen 23:03

Yeah, I have another follow up question if I may on the on the EPI deal or cooperation, which ⁓ Michael already mentioned somewhat surprising because EPI was on record for many years saying that interoperability can't work. Now they are changing their mind. I think from where it stands today, their presence is mainly where EMPSA

is not present. So it looks like a neat fit, complementary. But does that also mean that the ambition of EPI now to grow beyond their current markets where there is no strong existing local national payment solution is somewhat probably limited? So do you expect EPI to go into Portugal, for example?

and creating an alternative to MB WAY.

Teresa Mesquita 24:02

So the market is open, so that's always an option, as is an option of MB WAY to go into other markets. So I think that's in the sphere of the competitive ⁓ strategy that each solution can have. And you have some solutions that have been going into other markets. So you just mentioned Blik, the Nordics, they're present in several markets. So that's something that...

either through consolidation, either through some sort of partnership. It is things that can happen and I am sure will happen in the future. ⁓ What we believe is that we can use what we have today to be able to really give our users what they're asking for, which is the capability of going into another European market and use their MB WAY app and pay there and vice versa.

And there's ways that we can solve that and we can solve that without too much investment and with a necessary focus. But we do believe that there is ways that we can address that. And that's what we are doing. So it doesn't mean that everything will solve that way. But it's probably the fastest way at this moment for us to be able.

to have cross-border and pan-European payments, which is important for a sovereignty issue that we have been talking about. It's important for the users. But in the end, it's also important for the competitiveness of the market because today there is only one option to be able to do that, which also brings a lot of leverage for those non-European solutions. So I think it's something that there's a huge alignment in the market that we needed.

⁓ And going a little bit back into what you're saying that there is real pressure today for autonomy in the payment sector, what we believe, and that's what we believe EMPSA can help us as solutions, ⁓ is really that we need an industrial policy in payments, right? So it's a little bit like you're looking at other critical sectors in the economy and in the European Union and...

You're saying you need an industrial policy. You need to understand how to bring the industry together and cooperate and have one strategy.

Michael Salmony 26:25

Yes, sir.

Very good. That's something some of us have been saying for a long while. Let's hope we get there. Javier you. You were going to say something.

Ralf Ohlhausen 26:31

Michael's Pet Project.

Javier 26:32

Yeah.

I fully agree with you, Teresa, that we need that European policy. As presented by Michael, it looks like I am against sovereignty. I'm not. I am against the misuse of the concept of sovereignty because I think there is some non-sequitur in how it is presented.

How it is presented is that because we lack sovereignty, we need to regulate or because there is a lack of sovereignty, we need to launch the digital euro. Those are non-secret or those don't have any logic behind. And that's what I am against too. For instance, you mentioned the recent blackout in Spain and Portugal. That was a fully sovereign blackout. It was something having to do with full sovereignty on the issue. Sovereignty does not prevent ⁓ critical incidents to happen.

And that's why I fully agree with you, what we need is a policy supporting what we need to do. But it's just claiming sovereignty. It's an ad hoc argument to do something without having to convince the others that you have to do that because there are good reasons. That's what I try to explain when I say that I'm not convinced about the sovereignty argument.

Michael Salmony 27:58

makes it interesting.

Teresa Mesquita 27:58

Well,

my view on that really is that when we talk about sovereignty and payments, what we mean is that we need to address the fact that we need to have ⁓ European infrastructure that is supporting not only local domestic payments, but also cross-border payments. And that's really the last mile that we need to achieve. So that's what we mean is, how can we achieve that we are able to pay in another country?

either sending money like we're doing now in EuroPA or in the future also paying in a point of sale. How do we do that without having to use non-European infrastructure and non-European solutions?

Ralf Ohlhausen 28:38

⁓ You mentioned already that it is a challenge.

Javier 28:40

using them

wisely.

Ralf Ohlhausen 28:41

You mentioned already that it is a challenge, because the cross border use cases are small. let's say, whatever 95 % is probably domestic national business. So you have just like a 5 % or something in the order of that of cross border ⁓ payments. Now, ⁓ I understand that EMPSA gives you some

well, way of dealing with that and the interconnectivity, especially how you're coming together in EuroPA. But then you have to implement all of that, then you will have to implement the cross currency ⁓ solution, some cross currency solution there, which is still to come as you as you say. And, and all of that is really, in my mind, more faster.

more driven by regulation and the European Commission trying to have a single market, then commercial interest by the the players. now, beyond the European cross border business, there is the non the the world beyond Europe thing. So if I want, I cannot just have a European solution. So I'm traveling beyond Europe.

So wherever I go, will then need one of the other the non-European solutions anyway. So why do I need both a Visa MasterCard for going to the US and I need EuroPA for traveling in Europe.

Teresa Mesquita 30:12

Well...

If you see what's happening worldwide, think it's a trend that is not only happening in Europe. Many other countries have in the very recent past chosen to have a domestic brand. It can be based on cards, it can be based on instant payments, but many markets have in the very recent past been ⁓ fostering and creating conditions for ⁓ local ⁓

local solutions. In the end, they will always need a global brand into which to connect to do ⁓ cross-border. ⁓ then once we have these strong brands, we will also maybe be able to connect also outside of Europe, reusing these interoperability frameworks that are being built.

The way I see it actually is this could be a competitive advantage because we have a very fragmented market. It's not only in payments, it's in a lot of other ⁓ areas of the economy that Europe is fragmented. But that's the European way in some way, to some extent, right? And so of course we bring scale to different sectors, but we also have value in having the market as we have. the way we see it is,

It can actually be a competitive advantage once we figure out the way to connect the European solutions also to have other solutions worldwide to be able to connect. So that's one of the things. The other thing that I think I would like to address from your comment is...

Yes, it is up to the private sector in our perspective to invest and to ⁓ develop the solutions and to innovate on top of them. And it has been a challenge, of course, when you do it for a smaller part of the transaction base, let's say. ⁓ But it's worked in the past, right? So, and Javier here was very much involved, I believe, in...

in the SEPA framework in Europe and it has worked. And today we have full interoperability at the settlement layer. Of course, it's a very different challenge and we all know that from going to the point of sale, from going to the retail payment component of it at the point of sale. But it has been achieved and it has been achieved in the end. If you look at it, it was really maybe you didn't call it an industrial policy back in those days, but it was with

a good organization of public and private partnerships. So was really just getting together from a regulation perspective, but also from a private sector perspective and being able to have an agenda of deploying SEPA across Europe. And I think the banking sector took the challenge and was able to deliver on it. And so today we are actually in a much different position than when we were before SEPA.

So I guess that's what we mean by having an industrial policy is, yes, regulator will be part of it. We would ⁓ defend that one part of the regulation being part of it is simplifying the regulation. So you have many ⁓ pieces of legislation, PSD 2, 3, PSR, instant payments, digital year regulation.

they have different ways of treating different payment methods. And that is a challenge because when you're competing with cards on account to account payments, you can't have different regulations. And that's also why it's also so important to look at how the digital euro will be conceived and will be designed because in the end you cannot have a different regulatory landscape for one means of payment, public means of payment as you have vis-a-vis

private means of payment. And so that's why it's very important to have this discussion between the public and the private sector and to do it in a coordinated way because I fully believe that there is a shared objective here. There is a shared objective of being able to deliver better secure pan-European payments in the Eurozone but also in the European Union.

Michael Salmony 34:42

That's fun.

That's wonderful, Therese. You've put a wonderful closing segment, but Javier wants to add something.

Javier 34:46

Thank you.

Yeah,

just a short comment to Ralf. I think that you were like, well, I wouldn't say complaining, ⁓ asking why we should have two or more solutions. Of course, we do have, we need to have two, three or more solutions. That's the basis for ⁓ resilience. We need to have redundant solutions. We need to be used to use different instruments precisely.

to address the resilience and to try to avoid incidents and try to educate the population that they have to use different instruments. think using and having more than one solution is one of the ways to really build a robust system in Europe.

Ralf Ohlhausen 35:37

Well, I fully agree, of course, that we want to have competition and multiple solutions. But I think it is one of the aspects of this industry policy to keep it.

somewhat within limits so that we are not spreading too thinly. And if I, a customer, if I need the Visa MasterCard anyway, because I want to go beyond Europe, so why not using it in Italy and ⁓ in Spain or wherever when I'm traveling within Europe? And by the way, coming to the digital euro question, that also could be just the alternative. I don't need...

really there ⁓ like a multi country EMPSA solution if each country can have the digital euro as the fallback or as the co-batched solution for any other country and maybe a question on that one. do you see the digital euro maybe a bit provocative? Sorry, but at the end, but do you see some way of interoperability with the digital euro or is it more a question of competition?

Teresa Mesquita 36:38

Well, I think it really depends a lot on how the digital euro will be designed and conceived and how it also will be phased out in the approach in the rollout to the market. ⁓ I think the objectives of the digital euro are really worthy and I understand the basic argument of having a digital central bank form of money. ⁓

to the point that you were making before, it has pivoted a little bit into, we're addressing fragmentation in retail payments, we're addressing sovereignty, et cetera, which is a different problem to solve, right? And so it's ⁓ maybe then you should look at that problem specifically and for that problem, the digital euro should be one of the options, right?

⁓ And maybe it can be part of the solution in facilitating regarding all the investment that has to be done to building the interoperability. That's the approach that the ECB had with TIPS, for instance. So you have the different instant payment solution and TIPS is bringing the interoperability. So it's not something that cannot happen. Not that you actually need a digital euro to do that, but it can be part of the solution.

That's why I think that it's important to have these discussions and to actually evaluate and understand what is the problem that you are solving and what is the best approach to solve it, both from a cost perspective but also from a strategic perspective of giving a solution that actually addresses European strategic objectives. ⁓

It's very directly to your question. There is a risk of unintended consequences in the launch of the digital euro that it could crowd out investments. So there was a very recent study that the digital euro could actually ⁓ consume more than 50 % of all investment capabilities of PSPs in Europe. That was by the banking sector.

Michael Salmony 38:50

I feel that the ECB

denies rigorously, right? Not surprisingly.

Ralf Ohlhausen 38:54

Thank

Teresa Mesquita 38:55

But it's, well, it's one study. I think we need to have these from the ECB or from others. But if it's not 50%, if it's 30%, it's still concerning, right? It's still a challenge. And that just means that we need to discuss if we are solving the right problem and maybe how we could leverage these solutions that already exist in the interoperability concepts to actually have

a solution that from the digital euro perspective would be more cost effective and would actually bring maybe more usage in a shorter timeframe because in the end you do have that challenge. So the digital euro will not launch three to five years being optimistic and then it will take another three to five to get user adoption. So we're looking at a very long timeframe and today

Each market already has solutions that have millions of users across Europe. So I think that it will be much faster to leverage those users and to leverage the technologies that already are proven and resilient in each one of the markets and find a way of it to be either share standards, be interoperable. There are different levels.

If you look at it, EMV was a way for Visa and MasterCard to solve common acceptance at the point of interaction. So maybe we need an EMV concept with the digital euro. That's the discussions that we need to have. And that's also why we are engaging in EuroPA and EMPSA and also with EPI to understand what could the solutions could be. In the end...

Michael Salmony 40:43

I think we...

Teresa Mesquita 40:44

For

us, and just going a little bit back to the very start of our conversation, EuroPA or the European Payments Alliance is the private sector demonstrating that we are delivering and that we have a plan in the short term, short medium term to deliver.

Michael Salmony 41:03

Very good, Teresa, you fought your corner very well arguing for interoperability. I mean, I think many of us have been a long fan of this approach rather than doing a new greenfield solution actually to use those solutions which already work in the different countries and just make them usable in another country. But you've also pointed out how difficult interoperability is going to be, right? It's hard to make a business case because there are only a few percent of the traffic is in there. You have to do every single use case individually, the point of sale, the P2P,

the e-commerce, all those have to be done. So you're on an uphill ⁓ fight there, but I wish you strength and I'm sure we all do because that sounds like a very promising thing. You're always super interesting to talk to, Teresa. It was worth putting on my old school tie for you four. So thank you for visiting us. Thank you again to Ralf and to Javier for... ⁓

for giving you such challenging questions, which I think you responded to excellently. And thank you also to the audience for staying with us and please do join us for other episodes and please do also let us know in the comments if you would like to see other guests or other questions asked because we always try to cover topics that we think are interesting, but maybe we're missing something. So thank you to everybody and hope to see you next time. And especially thank you to Teresa for joining us for this podcast.

Teresa Mesquita 42:31

Thank you very much.

Javier 42:31

Thank you very